Oct 07
Get To Know One of the Proposed “Super Czars” – Former State Representative Jordan Tanner
2009 at 1:00 pm | posted by Rep. Craig Frank 33 comments
Joe Pyrah, from the Daily Herald, WROTE THIS ARTICLE last year about former state Representative Jordan Tanner (House District 63, 1991-2000). If the Ethics Initiative is passed in November of 2010, Tanner will become one of the five “Super Czars,” the non-elected, and supposed keepers and over-seers of the Ethics Commission. Called into question by many and reported by Pyrah about the ethical concern that Mr. Tanner at one time did not reside in the district that he represented (state law):
With his well-known push for ethics reform, Tanner also raised eyebrows toward the end of his time in the legislature when he built a house in the north end of the county but maintained that his residency was still in District 63.
When asked about this situation, Senate President John Valentine, who spent time with Tanner in the House, said there was discussion about where Tanner actually lived.
“It appeared to me at the time that he had moved out of the district,” he said. “It was pretty hard for him to make the case that he lived in two places at the same time.”
(Steve) Clark replaced Tanner eight years ago.
What’s equally disturbing in this Pyrah article, is the fact that Mr. Tanner (a republican?) also publicly endorsed a democrat running against Rep. Steve Clark (R-HD63) in the last election cycle.
Did someone mention this ballot initiative was a non-partisan ethics proposal???
33 Responses to “Get To Know One of the Proposed “Super Czars” – Former State Representative Jordan Tanner”
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October 7th, 2009 at 1:45 pm
Check out his bio from the desnews 1994.
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=9cMRAAAAIBAJ&sjid=duwDAAAAIBAJ&pg=3666%2C1071396
October 7th, 2009 at 1:53 pm
Read this article in 1999 where Tanner says he has a parade of homes house in Alpine yet lives in a bedroom in the house he is renting out in his district. This guy is worthy of a super czar position?
http://www.deseretnews.com/article/733651/Tanner-likely-to-stay-in-Provo-seat.html
What kind of stunt would I have to pull in order to make it on that ethics commission? Be the House clerk and try and extort speaker Curtis, delete my emails before leaving to run as a democrat against Rep. Garn?
October 7th, 2009 at 2:24 pm
And yet another article on Jordan Tanner living outside of his district and representing the good people in his old neighborhood.
http://www.deseretnews.com/article/726191/Is-Provo-politician-living-in-Alpine.html
October 7th, 2009 at 3:48 pm
And meet one of the biggest obstacles to having an intelligent, adult discussion…
Rep. Craig Frank, who finds someone somewhere who did not function entirely on some kind of brainless ideological purity checklist, and cries foul. Someone who perhaps made deductive decisions instead of reactionary hysteria.
“Super Czars.” Heh.
October 7th, 2009 at 4:00 pm
The guy’s a liar and the Lib’s want him to sit in judgment on our elected officials?!?
Yeah, that makes sense.
Don’t even try to convince me that he actually lived in his one bedroom basement apartment instead of his shiny new McMansion.
October 7th, 2009 at 7:25 pm
Just when you think it can’t get any worse. Sigh . . .
Rep. Frank’s small minded partisan mudslinging against the 5 sponsors of the Ethics Reform Initiative says a lot more about him than those who are the object of his attacks.
Craig’s ONLY argument so far against the Government Ethics Reform initiative has been to label the initial sponsors of the proposed legislation “Super Czars” and the 5 members of the Independent Citizens Ethics Commission who haven’t even been selected yet “Czars”. Painting those with whom you disagree with a negative sounding label is a “dirty trick” perhaps as old as politics itself. In almost every case it demonstrates that the individual caught with the “paintbrush” in his hand is completely devoid of any reasonable or logical argument to present.
Shame on you Rep. Frank for stooping to this level on this important issue. It is appalling to me that you would believe the electorate of Utah to be so stupid as to not be able to see through what you are attempting to do.
Rep. Frank’s entire argument is based upon the ASSUMPTION that all of the members of the House and Senate of the Utah Legislature collectively could not come up with the names of 20 well educated, impartial citizens who have demonstrated leadership and integrity in public service to serve as an independent ethics committee. It is interesting that a current legislator would harbor such a low opinion of those people he serves with in the legislative branch of the government. Perhaps he knows more about those people he serves alongside than we do.
Myself and other readers of Rep. Frank’s Blog are still waiting to hear his views and comments about the PROPOSED ETHICS RULES themselves, which are of course the real substance of this entire issue.
October 7th, 2009 at 7:47 pm
Johnny,
YOU are an embarrassment to your hypocritical educrat cronies!
I’m impressed that Rep. Frank allows your comments through, tells me the kind of man he is, and I GET TO VOTE for him, unlike you.
October 7th, 2009 at 7:52 pm
Mr. Talcott…thanks for continuing to share your thoughts and feelings. It’s an important part of the process. And, it is a process.
October 7th, 2009 at 10:20 pm
Mr. Taxpayer I have to admit that you may be living proof that there is at least one person who is unable/unwilling to see through Rep. Frank’s deceptive and misleading tactics.
I would be MORE than happy to discuss with you the proposed ethics rules to see which of those you feel that YOUR elected representative Mr. Frank should not have to follow. You can find them at this link:
http://www.utahnsforethicalgovernment.org/finalversion.petition.pdf
Go to page 11. In section 36-27-301 (2)(a) there are 9 ethics rules listed (i) through (ix). Then go to page 12 section (2)(b) where there are an additional 9 rules (i) through (ix).
This Mr. Taxpayer is what the Government Ethics Reform initiative is about—not whether Mr. Jordan Tanner lived in the basement of his home in Provo while he was serving out the his term as a legislator. That is just part of the smoke and mirrors that Rep. Frank is using to deflect attention away from the real ethics issues that need to be discussed.
October 7th, 2009 at 10:54 pm
Nice job Rep. Frank; completely ignore the substance of the initiative and engage in scurrilous ad hominem attacks against the sponsors. Classic Republican playbook. Also, good job making up a boogey man word! Super Czar! I would never think of that, but I guess you’re right, we should be afraid of five old men and women who hope their ethics commission outlives them. You are completely ridiculous; some people would take this initiative as a wake-up call as to how horribly people think of the Utah state government and the corruption especially apparent in the legislature. It’s not the piecemeal reforms made last year; it’s substantive change people want. I think you (maybe not you but other Republicans) are right that things won’t change until the people wake up and kick you hypocrites out of office.
October 7th, 2009 at 11:36 pm
Doing some research on the term Czar, I found the following statement on Wikipedia at this link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Czar_(political_term)
“One of the earliest known metaphorical usages of the term in the U.S. were to Judge Kenesaw Mountain Landis, who was named commissioner of baseball, with broad powers to clean up the sport after it had been dirtied by the Black Sox scandal of 1919.”
Perhaps Rep. Frank is more “prophetic” than we give him credit for. You would think that he and his ultra conservative cronies would have learned a lesson about thinking they are above the will of the people from their resounding defeat on the school vouchers issue. On this question there are even more citizens—85% in recent polls who agree that ethics reform is needed in the Utah Legislature.
October 8th, 2009 at 9:58 am
It appears the ethics initiative has a grand total three supporters – all of whom are unemployed and still live in their mother’s basement.
October 8th, 2009 at 9:05 pm
Thanks Joe the Plumber and Rep. Frank for giving me the opportunity to set the record straight on the number of supporters of the ethics initiative. This is from the website: http://www.utahnsforethicalgovernment.org/
SUPPORTERS OF THE INITIATIVE ON LEGISLATIVE ETHIC (as of 8/10/09)
Utahns for Ethical Government
Linda R. Adams, retired, Salt Lake City
Roi Agneta, web developer, Park City
C. Edwin Alter, retired, Salt Lake City
Robert M. Anderson, attorney, Salt Lake City
Ryan Anderson, educator, Castle Valley
Joseph Andrade, professor, U of U, Salt Lake City
Robert Archuleta, Citizens’ Counsel, retired teacher and administrator, SLC
Vik Arnold, educator, lobbyist, activist, Farmington
Pete Ashdown, business owner, Salt Lake City
Genevieve Atwood, Citizens’ Counsel, former Republican representative, SLC
Martha Hales Ball, former director Utah 3Rs project Salt Lake City
Marcy Barlow, educator, Farmington
Cathleen C. Baugh, homemaker, Orem
Steven C. Baugh, university professor, Orem
Beth Q. Beck, retired education administrator & past president UEA, Bountiful
Carol Bellmon, UT Admin of the Year 2008, former mayor of Sunset, Layton
John Bennion, educational consultant, Salt Lake City
Tom R. Birch, semi-retired civil engineer and land surveyor, Monroe
Mary Bishop, Salt Lake County regional director, Fair Boundaries, Salt Lake City
Shauna Bona, parent, citizen, and small business owner, Salt Lake City
Elaine Bonavita, chair, Right to Vote Committee, Sevier County, Salina
Don Bosch, retired state tax commission employee, Bountiful
Michael Boyle, utility manager, Park City
Gigi Brandt, past president League of Women Voters, Salt Lake City
Joel K. Briscoe, former president SLC Board of Education, teacher, SLC
Ray Briscoe, research analyst, Bountiful
Laurel O. Brown, community volunteer, member UT State Board of Ed Murray
Larry Brown, community activist, Provo
Dee S. Burningham, educator and lobbyist, Bountiful
Kim R. Burningham, former Republican state legislator, Bountiful
Susan C. Burningham, homemaker, manager retail sales, Bountiful
Tamalyn Calder, concerned citizen, Garden City
Janet A. Cannon, member Ut State Board of Ed (non-partisan), Holladay
Barbara Carrier, retired realtor, Salt Lake City
David Carrier, professor of Biology, University of Utah, Salt Lake City
Angie Carter, adjunct faculty UVU and homemaker, Provo
Leslie Brooks Castle, member Utah State Board of Education, Salt Lake City
Dolores Chase, former gallery owner, Salt Lake City
Carl Christensen, professor retired, California State University System, Provo
James Clayton, professor emeritus, U of U, Salt Lake City
Gregory Clark, teacher, Provo
Linda Rae Clark, community activist, Provo
Aileen H. Clyde, Citizens Counsel, former vice chair, UCC Regents,Springville
Dean Collinwood, professor, Bountiful
Patrick Commiskey, People’s Market supporter, Salt Lake City
Vaughn R. Cook, concerned citizen, Provo
Catherine Cooper, paramedic IHC, Woods Cross
Nancy Cooper, executive, Bountiful
Julie C. Cummings, retired psychologist, Salt Lake City
Richard J. Cummings, professor emeritus, U of U, Salt Lake City
Denise Dalton, controller, Zenger Folkman Company, Provo
Marguerite J. Danielson, retired legal secretary, Midvale
Ralph J. Danielson, retired IBM employee, Midvale
Becky Davidson, former elementary school teacher, homemaker, Holladay
Lynn Davidson, real estate developer, Holladay
Dawn Davies, resident, Cottonwood Heights
Craig Dennis, former publisher Daily Herald, Provo
C. Brooklyn Derr, professor emeritus, BYU and U of U, Alpine
Jill Mulvay Derr, historian, Alpine
Bonnie Despain, retired educator, Cottonwood Heights
James R. Despain, LCSW retired social worker, Cottonwood Heights
Gale Dick, Citizens Counsel, professor emeritus, Physics, U of U, Salt Lake City
Cassie Dippo, former lobbyist Common Cause, Salt Lake City
Terrell Harris Dougan, author and community volunteer, Salt Lake City
Lorelei Draper, homemaker, Delta
Ronald Draper, president Millard School Board, Delta
Charles Dubenezic, retired university professor, Eden
Nancy Dubenezic, retired health specialist, Eden
Jill Duke, concerned citizen, South Jordan
Linda P. Dunn, director Lowell Bennion Community Service Center, SLC
Murray Ennenga, working class, Bountiful
Liz Ence, small business owner, Cottonwood Heights
Rob Ence, state director for Utah, AARP, Cottonwood Heights
Breck England, business consultant, Bountiful
Anne Erickson, vice president (retired) Salt Lake Community College, SLC
Colleen Farmer, assistant professor Biology, U of U, Salt Lake City
Carol M. Fay, community volunteer, Salt lake City
Bonnie Fernandes, resident, West Jordan
Scott Ellis Ferrin, Associate Professor, Adjunct Professor Law, BYU, Provo
Kate Fielder, communications professional, Park City
Garl Fink, retired, Salt Lake City
Kristie Fink, educator, Salt Lake City
Irene S. Fisher,Citizens Counsel, founding director of the LBCSC Salt Lake City
Mike Forste, public school teacher, Provo
Renate Forste, university professor, Provo
Jeff Fox, educator, Provo
Stacey Frampton, nurse practitioner, Ogden
Leslie Francis, Distinguished Professor of Law and Philosophy, U of U, SLC
Kathryn French, professor Psychology, UVU, Pleasant Grove
Shanna Futral, education grant facilitator and evaluator, Layton
Pat Gamble-Hovey, retired clinical social worker, Salt Lake City
Brian Garrett, software engineer, Salt Lake City
Teresa Garrett, registered nurse, health professional, Salt Lake City
Claire Geddes, citizen advocate, Cottonwood Heights
William Gillespie, civics educator and guidance counselor, Provo
Tom Goldsmith, Reverend, Unitarian Church, Salt Lake City
Gail Goodwin, concerned citizen, Sandy
Peter Grundfossen, former Democratic state representative, former deputy director ofUtah Department of Community and Economic Development, SLC
Gary R. Guelker, Republican state delegate, Salt Lake City
Barb Guy, freelance writer, Salt Lake City
Nancy N. Haanstad, associate professor Political Science, Salt Lake City
Karen Hale, former Democratic state senator, Salt Lake City
Kay Hall, small business office worker, Bountiful
Ruby Hammel, legis. chair Ut Retired School Employees Assn, Cottonwood Hts
Kate Handley, retired piano teacher, Salt Lake City
Kenneth Handley, retired attorney, Salt Lake City
Jeff Hatch, Salt Lake County Auditor, Salt Lake City
Harlan Hatfield, lawyer, Provo
Marilyn Hatfield, retired public school teacher, Provo
RaDene Hatfield, CEO Little Heroes Foundation, Inc., Provo
Delanie Hathaway, past president Utah School Boards Association, Nephi
Todd Hathaway, concerned citizen, Nephi
Alan B. Hayes, senior data architect, IHC, Salt Lake City
Laura Henderson, paralegal, Salt Lake City
Moe Hickey, consultant, Park City
Claralyn Hill, attorney, Provo
Jean Welch Hill, attorney, Salt Lake City
Ned C. Hill, former dean School of Management, now professor of finance and board member of one of nation’s largest banking institutions, Provo
David Hogue, former Republican state representative, Riverton
K. B. Hom, Community advocate, Asian/Pacific Islander Communities, SLC
Linda Houskeeper, former Rep. county delegate, and st central comm Orem
Kamie Hubbard, small business owner, PTA Board member, Hooper
Dixie Snow Huefner, emerita professor, U of U, Salt Lake City
Gil Iker, retired colonel, Special Forces, U.S. Army, retired business exe. SLC
David Irvine, attorney, former Republican legislator, Bountiful
Richard Jackson, university professor, Orem
Dennis R. James, attorney, Salt Lake City
Craig Janis, law student at BYU, Provo
Boyer Jarvis, Citizens Counsel, ret Assoc VP for Academic Affairs, U of U, SLC
Donald K. Jarvis, retired BYU administrator and professor, Provo
Janelle J. Jarvis, homemaker, Provo
Cora Jckowski, retired principal, West Jordan
Brian Jenkins, small business owner, Park City
Doug Jensen, healthcare work, Murray
Mark A. Jensen, business owner/designer, Pleasant Grove
Tracy Jensen, school teacher, Murray
Janet I. Jenson, attorney, Salt Lake City
Craig Johnson, software developer, Draper
Lisa Johnson, community advocate, Draper
Kaaron Jorgen, school board pres, Canyon Co. Partnership exe. officer Moab
Rod O. Julander, professor emeritus, Weber State U, former Democratic state senator,Salt Lake City
Paula Julander, former Democratic state senator, Salt Lake City
Lucile Kimball, homemaker, Highland
Stanley Kimball, financial planner, Highland
Lucinda Kindred, partner, Vanguard Media Group, Salt Lake City
Bruce Kirchenheiter, airline pilot, Park City
Lisa Kirchenheiter, homemaker, Park City
Louise T. Knauer, attorney, Salt Lake City
Susan Koles, non-profit sector institutional advancement exec/consultant, SLC
Betty Kraja, concerned citizen, Layton
Steven O. Laing former State Superintendent of Public Instruction Brigham City
Glen Lambert, licensed mental health therapist, clinical professor U of U, former director of Odyssey House, Salt Lake City
Derek Langton, attorney, Salt Lake City
Holly Langton, community activist, Salt Lake City
Elise Lazar, former chair of Salt Lake mayor’s Green Team, Salt Lake City’
Alene Loughner, concerned senior citizen, West Jordan
Tom Love, partner, Love Communications, Salt Lake City
Slava Lubomudrov, associate professor emeritus, U of U, Ivins
Piper Manesse, stay-at-home mom & retired Army Reserve, Spanish Fork
Mark Marsh, concerned citizen, Coalville
Rochelle R. Martin, small business owner, Heber City
Kena Jo Mathews, non-profit director, Springville
Ed Mayer, concerned citizen, Bountiful
Meg Mayer, concerned citizen, Bountiful
Vickie McCall, realtor, Ogden
Kathleen McConkie, attorney, Bountiful
Bette Jo McLelland, political worker, Provo
Scott R. Mecham, law firm chief operating officer, Salt Lake City
Kelvin Meier, concerned citizen, Taylorsville
Sarah R. Meier, former president, Utah School Boards Association, Taylorsville
Jan Miller, retired state employee, Salt Lake City
Robert A. Miller, president, Lorraine Press, Holladay
John W. Milliken, president Milcom, Inc., Salt Lake City
Joanne R. Milner, former Dem. state legislator and SLC Council member, SLC
Michael Minch, associate professor of philosophy, UVU, Orem
Julia J. Moore, sales/account manager for printing company, Park City
William P. Moore, former president Utah School Boards Association, Bountiful
Anthony Morgan, vice president emeritus, U of U, Salt Lake City
Mary Ann Morgan, retired music teacher, Salt Lake City
Denis Morrill, member State Board of Education, Taylorsville
S. Baird Morgan, attorney, Salt Lake City
Gloria Gardner Murdock, educator, Salt Lake City
Linda Murphy, retired, Holladay
Jennifer Neslen, mother and concerned citizen, Koosharem
Daniel G. Newell, businessman, Draper
L. Jackson Newell, professor emeritus, U of U, and president emeritus, Deep Springs College, Salt Lake City
Elaine Nielson, small business co-owner, political volunteer, Salt Lake County
Brittany Noble, teacher, Taylorsville
Mark Noble, corrections officer, Taylorsville
Marilyn O’Dell, retired, Salt Lake City
Albert K. Ogden, retired educator, Stansbury Park
Patrick Ogden, Resident, Salt Lake City
Ruth B. Ohlsen, retired small business owner, Salt Lake City
William Ohlsen, professor emeritus, U of U, Salt Lake City
Sunshine O’Meara, full time caregiver, Kaysville
Starleen Orullian, executive director, Granite Education Association, SLC
John E. Pace, architect, Salt Lake City
Rick Palmer, educator, advocate, activist, Ogden
Cherie Park, student, homemaker, Panguitch
George Park, superintendent Garfield School District, Panguitch
Douglas Parker, professor of law, BYU, Provo
Kathryn Paxman, homemaker, Mapleton
Sandy Peck, executive director League of Women Voters, Holladay
Boyd Petersen, faculty member, prog coord of Mormon Studies, UVU Provo
Carole E. Peterson, retired chief clerk, Utah House of Representatives
Chase Peterson, Citizens’ Counsel, former pres. University of Utah, Park City
Georgia Peterson, former Republican legislator, Salt Lake City
Grethe Peterson, Citizens Counsel, retired chair of Utah Endowment for the Humanities,Park City
Cheryl Phipps, child advocate, Clearfield
Vern Phipps, business analyst, community activist, Clearfield
Laura Polacheck, attorney, Salt Lake City
Henrietta Prater, producer, Salt Lake City
Jack Redd, former Republican majority leader, Utah House of Rep, Bountiful
Dale Rice, concerned citizen, Manti
Pat Rice, concerned citizen, Manti
Gina Rieke, retired financial adviser, Taylorsville
J. Bonner Ritchie, professor emeritus, BYU Marriott School; scholar in residence, Utah Valley University, Provo
James Roberts, co-founder of Redirect Relationship Marketing, Salt Lake City
Barbara Robinson, retired, Salt Lake City
Chris Rohrer, citizen, Salt Lake City
Dee Rowland, government liaison, Utah Catholic Diocese, past president League of Women Voters, Salt Lake City
Gloria Ruiz, retired teacher, Provo
Pat Rusk, former UEA president, fourth grade teacher, West Jordan
Greg Sanders, attorney, Salt Lake City
Deb Sawyer, peace activist, Salt Lake City
Gail G. Schimmelpfennig, poet, teacher, and volunteer, Sandy
Luana Searle, executive Utah Assn of Elementary School principals, Am Fork
Bill Sederburg, concerned citizen, Salt Lake City
Karen Shepherd, former Utah State Senator and Congresswoman, SLC
Lori Shields, mom, Salt Lake City
LaWanna “Lou” Shurtliff, former Democratic representative and former co-chair of the House Ethics Committee, Ogden
Mike Silver, statistician, Salt Lake City
Marilyn Simister, former Utah State PTA president, Lindon
Tyler Slack, volunteer citizen, Tooele
William B. Smart, former editor and general manager Deseret News, SLC
Donna T. Smart, former schoolteacher and former president of the University of Utah Women’s Club, Salt Lake City
Alan Smith, lawyer and citizen, Salt Lake City
Amy Hyde Smith, politically-active mom, Provo
Stanford Smith, former Republican state legislator, Bountiful
Carmen Snow, past president Utah State PTA, St. George
Karl Snow, professor emeritus Marriott School of Management, former Republican State Senate majority leader, Provo
Phyllis Sorensen, past UEA president, retired educator, American Fork
Richard Southwick, retired university exec and organizational consultant, Ogden
Sherrie Southwick, retired conference planner, Ogden
Bob Springmeyer, 2008 Democratic nominee for Utah governor, Salt Lake City
David Steele, former Republican state senator, West Point
Frank Steffey, retired, Salt Lake City
Vickie Steffey, LCSW (retired), Holladay
Alice Larkin Steiner, community activist, Salt Lake City
Suzanne S. Stensaas, concerned citizen, Salt Lake City
Elizabeth Stewart, retired forensic psychologist, Salt Lake City
Don A. Stringham, attorney, Salt Lake City
Karl Swan, former state Democratic senator from Tooele, Roy
Kay Thompson Swan, former Democrat candidate, Roy
Debbie Swenson, Democratic candidate for Utah Legislature, 2008, Salem
Sharon Lee Swenson, faculty member, BYU, Salt Lake City
Donna Switzer, retired diplomat, Sandy
Jordan Tanner, former Republican state legislator, Provo
Erika Taylor, community activist, Springville
John Taylor, family physician and Republican precinct chair, Springville
Emma Lou Thayne, Citizens Counsel, poet and educator, Salt Lake City
Paul Thomas, emeritus professor of English, BYU, Provo
Sandy Thomas, politically active homemaker, Provo
Aaron Thompson, paralegal, West Jordan
Paul Thompson, former president, Weber State University, Orem
Brent Thorne, PhD, Richfield
James P. Thorne, former Democratic party delegate, District vice chair, P.G.
Betsy Thurgood, teacher, Syracuse
Stephen Trimble, writer/photographer and environmental activist, SLC
Raymond Uno, Citizens Counsel, retired judge 3rd district court, Salt Lake City
Cornelia Nancy von Allmen, Canyon Rim Citizen’s Assn, travel consultant SLC
Christy Voss, college counselor Judge Memorial Catholic High School, SLC
Daniel J. Wadley, attorney, Centerville
KayeLynn Van Wagenen, nurse practitioner, Sandy
Ralph Wakley, retied newspaper/newswire service reporter/editor, Murray
Malcolm Walden, retired federal executive, Tooele
Olene Walker, former governor State of Utah, former Republican state representative, St.George
Marcy Smith West, candidate for Utah State Legislature, Clearfield
Terry E. Welch, vice president, Parr Brown Gee and Loveless, Salt Lake City
Brian Whisenant, cardiologist, Salt Lake City
Eleanor Willhard, tax consultant, Bountiful
Anna B. Williams, clinical assistant emerita, U of U, Salt Lake City
Claudia Williams, social worker, Provo
Gerald Williams, professor emeritus of law, BYU, Provo
Margaret W. Wilson, retired educator, Salt Lake City
Hal Wolf, professor emeritus, U of U, Salt Lake City
Joan Wolf, professor emerita, U of U, Salt Lake City
Cherry Wong, community activist, Salt Lake City
Tod Young, planning commissioner, Sandy
Anne Zeigler, concerned citizen, Cottonwood Heights
Stephen W. Zsiray, retired school administrator, Logan
October 8th, 2009 at 11:21 pm
You’re still a few thousand names short…and, a few of the people on your list have changed their minds.
October 9th, 2009 at 8:15 am
Such as?
October 9th, 2009 at 4:50 pm
John,
Where do I go to sign this thing?
I don’t know if I will vote for it or not, But I do want to see it on the ballot to send a message to the politicians that doing nothing isn’t an option, And that their are a considerable number of people that do think ethics is a problem.
October 9th, 2009 at 11:21 pm
I believe Rep. Frank that my post said Supporters as of 8/10/09. Thanks for telling your readers that the list has increased a few thousand names in just 2 months. That is fantastic!
October 10th, 2009 at 11:45 am
@ TJ, who said, “Craig’s ONLY argument so far against the Government Ethics Reform initiative has been to label the initial sponsors of the proposed legislation “Super Czars” and the 5 members of the Independent Citizens Ethics Commission who haven’t even been selected yet “Czars”.”
You can’t make that statement and pretend to be making an honest argument at the same time.
October 10th, 2009 at 5:56 pm
Ok JJL9. Let’s see who is “pretending” to make an HONEST argument against the Government Ethics Reform Initiative.
I challenge you to quote one, just ONE single argument against the Government Ethics Reform Initiative written by Representative Craig Frank in his two blog articles on this topic that does NOT have anything to do with the two committees he labels Czars and Super Czars including any of the individuals who make up the committees.
All you have to do is to find just ONE quote and to copy it here verbatim and I will graciously concede that you are correct and I am wrong.
October 12th, 2009 at 3:53 pm
John Talcott,
You argue;
“Craig’s ONLY argument so far against the Government Ethics Reform initiative has been to label the initial sponsors of the proposed legislation “Super Czars” and the 5 members of the Independent Citizens Ethics Commission who haven’t even been selected yet “Czars”. Painting those with whom you disagree with a negative sounding label is a “dirty trick” perhaps as old as politics itself. In almost every case it demonstrates that the individual caught with the “paintbrush” in his hand is completely devoid of any reasonable or logical argument to present.”
I dont know if you noticed that the paintbrush is in your hands;
“Rep. Frank’s small minded partisan mudslinging against the 5 sponsors of the Ethics Reform Initiative says a lot more about him than those who are the object of his attacks.”
Small minded mudslinging? How’s that glass house working out for you?
Your only argument so far has been to complain about the use of the word Czar. President Obama has a bunch of them….so what. What is important is the role that these individuals will play in ethics complaints and that you have not addressed. I will repeat my questions from the last post that you ignored while trying to personally attack me.
Who are the 5 sponsors? What is their motivation? Haven’t some of the 5 “sponsors” changed recently? What’s to protect us from future changes? Who takes over when one of those folks passes away? What keeps any of those folks from being corrupted? How many of those folks have had ethical violations of their own? How many of them have worked as a lobbyist? Or for a labor union?
These are questions where the answers should concern anyone from EITHER party. IF they are being honest in their intentions. In addition these are the questions that the good citizens of Utah deserve answers to and the ONUS is on those that are pushing, supported and defending the act to provide those answers…..So get to work.
Oh and John, the sponsers ARE the issue so your insistance that we debate something else or the Rep Frank is uncredible because he is focusing on the primary flaw in the legislation leads me to believe that YOU know that it is a problem as well. You can personally attack Rep Frank all you want and it does discredit somebody…just not who you think it does.
Your position assumes that politicians will not file frivolous ethics complaints in order to smear a political opponent however recent Utah history shows that is not the case.
This makes the motivations and the politics of those 5 sponsers VERY important. Also hasn’t the “5 original sponsers” changed recently? Why did it change? Have any of the 5 sponsers worked as a lobbiest? How about for a union? Wouldn’t that perhaps create a conflict of interest? Have any of the “sponsers”, current or original, ever had ethics complaints logged against them?
Asking these questions does not make me a member of the Vast Right Wing Conspiracy. It makes me a concerned citizen with questions regarding an initiative that we the citizens might be asked to sign.
Regards,
John
October 12th, 2009 at 8:52 pm
Is there anyone out there who want’s to discuss the Government Ethics Reform initiative. Anyone?
If Mr. Cheshire is really interested in the backgrounds, intentions and motives of the original sponsors of the initiative, I’m sure any one of them would be more than happy to discuss his concerns.
An intelligent discussion really requires a lot more than a bunch of baiting questions. Some facts and information would be helpful. Some research and authoritative quotes to support one’s point of view is also quite effective.
If anyone mistakenly thinks that the topic of the original sponsors of the Government Ethics Reform initiative is the ONLY issue that is important then I would encourage them to go to this website and read everything that is written and linked to on the page. To get the big picture, one just needs to put their obsession with Czars down long enough to read through, think about, and process with an open mind all of the facts and information found at this site.
http://www.utahnsforethicalgovernment.org/
For what its worth. Just writing a lot of words doesn’t mean that one is holding his own in an argument or debate. It is the clear thinking and ideas expressed by the words that count—not the count of the words.
October 13th, 2009 at 10:55 am
You seem to be confused John. The 5 “sponsors” is what is being debated here. It is the topic of the post you know. Do you? You seem unwilling or unable to do just that. If you are afraid or unable to do so then don’t comment.
Since when does the great John Talcott get to decide what passes for acceptable debate? Man, you are full of yourself and quite trying to hijack the thread off the topic. If you want to debate the 18 ethics rules then start a blog and do just that but don’t come in here and start inferring that people are hateful or “misanthropic” because they have found something in the proposed legislation that they don’t like or understand.
Your intention are clear but John Talcott does not get to arbitrarily decide that the topic is worthy or unworthy of debate just because you have a faith based belief that these sponsors are above corruption. Maybe those of us who live in reality and have seen politicians be corrupted, don’t have that same faith based belief as you do.
Rep. Frank myself and others have made our points and they are valid. More importantly (and telling) has been your inability or unwillingness to answer one question or concern we have surrounding the five sponsors. It’s on you and the other supporters to answer these questions.
You said;
“For what it’s worth. Just writing a lot of words doesn’t mean that one is holding his own in an argument or debate. It is the clear thinking and ideas expressed by the words that count—not the count of the words.”
Well said. Heed your own advice John.
Let us try one more time and I will make is easy for you with just one question. You know,…less word for you.
Where in the legislation does it name the five sponsors of the act?
It is not a baiting question. It is legit. Just the page will suffice.
October 13th, 2009 at 11:04 am
I think this may help clean up John T’s confusion.
Link to LG’s site, contains the documentation on the ethics initiative
http://www.elections.utah.gov/InitiativesCurrentlyinCirculation.htm
Link to the LG’s site, first signatory (a.k.a 5 “super czars”)
http://www.elections.utah.gov/Iniatiatives.Referendums/Ethics.sponsors.pdf
Did this help clarify?
October 13th, 2009 at 11:04 am
By the way, just because you are unable to answer a question does not make it a baiting question. It just means that you do not have an answer.
October 13th, 2009 at 11:05 am
Or you realize that the answer validates our concerns, which is the more likely scenario.
October 13th, 2009 at 11:06 am
See, less words!
October 13th, 2009 at 12:22 pm
Aaron’s first comment is a profile from ‘94 when Tanner was 63 years old. That measn he is about 75-76 roughly.
Next question for Mr. Talcott.
What happens when Tanner passes away? Who takes his place? Please reference the part of the legislation that adresses that.
Again this is not a baiting question but a legitimate concern I have.
October 13th, 2009 at 5:04 pm
Mr. Talcott? Can you answer either of the above questions. I thought you wanted to debate the Government Ethics Reform initiative?
If you could just point us to the page that explains who takes over the role of “sponser” when one of the “sponsers” is unable to serve that would be great and go along way to addressing some of the citizens concerns.
Regards,
John
October 13th, 2009 at 6:59 pm
36-27-102(1)(dd)
October 14th, 2009 at 10:47 am
How about we replace the current 5 Super Czars with:
Rep. Craig Frank
Rep. Greg Hughes
Sen. Margaret Dayton
Sen. Howard Stephenson
Sen. Curt Bramble
There about as “independent” as the current 5!
Will you still support it John?
October 14th, 2009 at 6:32 pm
Section 36-27-102(1)(dd) says;
(dd) “Sponsors” means the first 5 signatories of this initiative petition pursuant to section 20A-7-202(2) of the Utah Code who still reside within the state of Utah and are competent, at the applicable time, to perform the duties specified in sections 36-27-201(4)(a), 36-27-201(4)(c), and
36-27-201(5) of this Act.
So if you follow the link that Aaron provided in comment # 23 you will find all 12 of the original signatories. You will find former politicians and their spouses, former lobbyist and UEA members and a member (former?) of the state board of Education. They are not just average citizens but members of the Utah political establishment.
Mr. Talcott believes that none of them have an agenda even though recent history with the school vouchers issue (or any other controversial political issue) has demonstrated a disturbing trend of ethics complaints being used as a weapon (by both sides) instead of what they were intended to do, which is root out corruption.
I don’t share John’s optimism. One might even say I am misanthropic.
Let me be clear John. I am a full supporter of ethics reform. But I can’t get behind, and am compelled to fight against, an initiative which I believe will allow people to use “ethics” complaints as a political weapon against those with whom they disagree.
Also what happens when we can’t get 5 of the 12 listed with the LG for any reason? Most of the signatories are older and retired and unfortunately will not be with us forever. Do we just start going down the list? What list? Where do we find that list?
Regards,
John
October 14th, 2009 at 7:47 pm
Maybe a comet will hit the earth and destroy human life as we know it. Maybe my hair will fall out tomorrow. Maybe my 401K will turn into a 201K—oh wait that already happened.
I remember the John Birch Society whose members lived in fear that everyone “might” be a communist and “might” be out to destroy democracy, and “might” be hiding under their beds. Something in this thread made me think of them. Hmmm . . . .
From the Qur’an:
The Prohibition of Unfounded Suspicion
Allah the Exalted forbids His faithful servants from being suspicious, which includes having doubts and suspicions about the conduct of one’s family, relatives and other people in general. Therefore, Muslims are to avoid suspicion without foundation. The Leader of the faithful `Umar bin Al-Khattab said, “Never think ill of the word that comes out of your believing brother’s mouth, as long as you can find a good excuse for it.”
Your “believing brother” is Karl Snow former assistant vice president of BYU and Special Representatives for The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saint to United Nations Ambassadors and Consuls General in Greater NYC.
It is Dr. Snow and his friends and colleagues that have created all of the fear and suspicion in this thread. You’d think he was an agent of Lucifer, or even worse a LIBERAL DEMOCRAT FROM SALT LAKE COUNTY.
Remembering Mark Twain’s warning to never argue with a fool, since passers by may not know the difference, I’m through here. John Cheshire I concede that you “may” be right.
October 14th, 2009 at 10:32 pm
One more thing Mr. Cheshire. You have demonstrate your true character by the comments about me on your blog. Kind of like talking about someone behind their back. You must be quite proud of yourself.