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	<title>Comments on: Mirror, Mirror on the Wall&#8230;</title>
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	<description>Politics * Economics * Business * History * People</description>
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		<title>By: Under The Dome &#187; Governor&#8217;s Commission &#8220;Left-Leaning&#8221;</title>
		<link>http://underthedome.org/2009/09/30/mirror-mirror-on-the-wall/comment-page-1/#comment-80575</link>
		<dc:creator>Under The Dome &#187; Governor&#8217;s Commission &#8220;Left-Leaning&#8221;</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Nov 2009 06:12:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://underthedome.org/?p=891#comment-80575</guid>
		<description>[...] I have been ranked as one of the most conservative legislators in the State of Utah (see Mirror, Mirror on the Wall).  Anything left of me&#8230;is left leaning.   Also, I consider the vote on the original Dryer [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] I have been ranked as one of the most conservative legislators in the State of Utah (see Mirror, Mirror on the Wall).  Anything left of me&#8230;is left leaning.   Also, I consider the vote on the original Dryer [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Ronald D. Hunt</title>
		<link>http://underthedome.org/2009/09/30/mirror-mirror-on-the-wall/comment-page-1/#comment-79091</link>
		<dc:creator>Ronald D. Hunt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 04 Oct 2009 19:22:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://underthedome.org/?p=891#comment-79091</guid>
		<description>I am saying that if you want to make something illegal, that some times you need to do that which you want to make illegal in order to make it illegal. Or that just because you don&#039;t like the rules doesn&#039;t mean your better then them or can live above them.

With campaign reform in general, if a politician holds himself to a higher standard he is never going to get into office in order to make that higher standard the rule of law.

Just like with health insurance company&#039;s that use rescission, the one&#039;s that didn&#039;t do them went out of business or where bought out, or had their executive staff fired and replaced by people who are willing to preform them.  

I am very supportive of the reforms proposed, I would actually like to see more reforms. Saying we shouldn&#039;t pass a reform based on the fact that someone is doing what the reform would ban seems a bit silly(image that argument being used for health insurance rescission).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am saying that if you want to make something illegal, that some times you need to do that which you want to make illegal in order to make it illegal. Or that just because you don&#8217;t like the rules doesn&#8217;t mean your better then them or can live above them.</p>
<p>With campaign reform in general, if a politician holds himself to a higher standard he is never going to get into office in order to make that higher standard the rule of law.</p>
<p>Just like with health insurance company&#8217;s that use rescission, the one&#8217;s that didn&#8217;t do them went out of business or where bought out, or had their executive staff fired and replaced by people who are willing to preform them.  </p>
<p>I am very supportive of the reforms proposed, I would actually like to see more reforms. Saying we shouldn&#8217;t pass a reform based on the fact that someone is doing what the reform would ban seems a bit silly(image that argument being used for health insurance rescission).</p>
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		<title>By: John B Talcott</title>
		<link>http://underthedome.org/2009/09/30/mirror-mirror-on-the-wall/comment-page-1/#comment-79090</link>
		<dc:creator>John B Talcott</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 04 Oct 2009 18:19:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://underthedome.org/?p=891#comment-79090</guid>
		<description>With all due respect Ronald, I read your reply at least 20  times and it still makes no sense to me. It is just &quot;double talk&quot;. What is it you are actually trying to say?

Mr. Taxpayer to spell Hypocrite without the &quot;e&quot; and Actually without the &quot;y&quot; are not the same thing and you know it.   The first could be considered a &quot;misspelling&quot;, the second would be a &quot;typo&quot; since no one would ever &quot;misspell&quot; actually - actuall.  Am I making sense?

All this nit picking about the single issue of the UEA hiring Mr. Holdaway right out of the legislature which under the current law is perfectly legal and ethical is nothing more than a SMOKESCREEN.   The two year waiting period for a legislator to become a lobbyist is but ONE of dozens of ethics guidelines contained in the initiative that the UEA, the League of Women&#039;s Voters, the AARP and apparently everyone outside of Utah County think is a good idea.

The fact that you folks continue to harp on this one singe issue tells me that you really have no substantiative arguments against the provisions of the proposed ethics bill itself. 

Mr. Taxpayer your arguments are specious at best.  If the folks you know who used to make over 100 K have lost their jobs or have taken cuts in pay then they wouldn&#039;t be subject to the progressive income tax brackets I proposed in the first place, would they?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>With all due respect Ronald, I read your reply at least 20  times and it still makes no sense to me. It is just &#8220;double talk&#8221;. What is it you are actually trying to say?</p>
<p>Mr. Taxpayer to spell Hypocrite without the &#8220;e&#8221; and Actually without the &#8220;y&#8221; are not the same thing and you know it.   The first could be considered a &#8220;misspelling&#8221;, the second would be a &#8220;typo&#8221; since no one would ever &#8220;misspell&#8221; actually &#8211; actuall.  Am I making sense?</p>
<p>All this nit picking about the single issue of the UEA hiring Mr. Holdaway right out of the legislature which under the current law is perfectly legal and ethical is nothing more than a SMOKESCREEN.   The two year waiting period for a legislator to become a lobbyist is but ONE of dozens of ethics guidelines contained in the initiative that the UEA, the League of Women&#8217;s Voters, the AARP and apparently everyone outside of Utah County think is a good idea.</p>
<p>The fact that you folks continue to harp on this one singe issue tells me that you really have no substantiative arguments against the provisions of the proposed ethics bill itself. </p>
<p>Mr. Taxpayer your arguments are specious at best.  If the folks you know who used to make over 100 K have lost their jobs or have taken cuts in pay then they wouldn&#8217;t be subject to the progressive income tax brackets I proposed in the first place, would they?</p>
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		<title>By: Ronald D. Hunt</title>
		<link>http://underthedome.org/2009/09/30/mirror-mirror-on-the-wall/comment-page-1/#comment-79089</link>
		<dc:creator>Ronald D. Hunt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 04 Oct 2009 16:34:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://underthedome.org/?p=891#comment-79089</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;&quot;If it is perfectly ethical to do it now WHY RUN/SUPPORT THE INITIATIVE?&quot;&lt;/i&gt;
To hold oneself to a higher standard is to put oneself at a grave disadvantage to those that do not hold that the higher standard should be legal standard. No one must use every advantage to change the rules so that the higher standard becomes the legal standard. Their are exceptions of course just not in business and politics.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>&#8220;If it is perfectly ethical to do it now WHY RUN/SUPPORT THE INITIATIVE?&#8221;</i><br />
To hold oneself to a higher standard is to put oneself at a grave disadvantage to those that do not hold that the higher standard should be legal standard. No one must use every advantage to change the rules so that the higher standard becomes the legal standard. Their are exceptions of course just not in business and politics.</p>
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		<title>By: Tazpayer</title>
		<link>http://underthedome.org/2009/09/30/mirror-mirror-on-the-wall/comment-page-1/#comment-79087</link>
		<dc:creator>Tazpayer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 04 Oct 2009 15:15:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://underthedome.org/?p=891#comment-79087</guid>
		<description>&quot;Actuall Rep. Frank&quot;.....&quot;it is a good idea to first know how to spell the word.&quot;
Sometimes your own words come back to bite you in the butt!

&quot;What Mr. Holdaway has done is perfectly ethical and legal at the present time. &quot; .... If it is perfectly ethical to do it now WHY RUN/SUPPORT THE INITIATIVE?  Why then, did your buddies in the liberal media call attention to it?

&quot;still sad to see you continue to decline to address or respond to any of the issues I raised&quot;

Who died and made you judge and jury?  I know plenty of folks including at least 5 legislators who are struggling right now to feed their families and keep their homes.  This economy has hurt everyone, including those who used to make over 100K, who have mortgages to pay, that have lost their jobs or have been significantly cut.

Go talk to all your educrat cronies, Mr. Newbold who makes 237K and ask him to donate some of that to his own district.  Republicans aren&#039;t the only ones that make over 100K</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Actuall Rep. Frank&#8221;&#8230;..&#8221;it is a good idea to first know how to spell the word.&#8221;<br />
Sometimes your own words come back to bite you in the butt!</p>
<p>&#8220;What Mr. Holdaway has done is perfectly ethical and legal at the present time. &#8221; &#8230;. If it is perfectly ethical to do it now WHY RUN/SUPPORT THE INITIATIVE?  Why then, did your buddies in the liberal media call attention to it?</p>
<p>&#8220;still sad to see you continue to decline to address or respond to any of the issues I raised&#8221;</p>
<p>Who died and made you judge and jury?  I know plenty of folks including at least 5 legislators who are struggling right now to feed their families and keep their homes.  This economy has hurt everyone, including those who used to make over 100K, who have mortgages to pay, that have lost their jobs or have been significantly cut.</p>
<p>Go talk to all your educrat cronies, Mr. Newbold who makes 237K and ask him to donate some of that to his own district.  Republicans aren&#8217;t the only ones that make over 100K</p>
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		<title>By: John B Talcott</title>
		<link>http://underthedome.org/2009/09/30/mirror-mirror-on-the-wall/comment-page-1/#comment-79055</link>
		<dc:creator>John B Talcott</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 03 Oct 2009 21:30:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://underthedome.org/?p=891#comment-79055</guid>
		<description>Rep. Frank, still sad to see you continue to decline to address or respond to any of the issues I raised.  

To Mr. (anonymous) Taxpayer.  There is nothing to be indignant about.  What Mr. Holdaway has done is perfectly ethical and legal at the present time.  The UEA, AARP, League of Women Voters have all thrown support behind the citizen&#039;s initiative.  I believe there will be many more organizations added to this list as time goes on.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Rep. Frank, still sad to see you continue to decline to address or respond to any of the issues I raised.  </p>
<p>To Mr. (anonymous) Taxpayer.  There is nothing to be indignant about.  What Mr. Holdaway has done is perfectly ethical and legal at the present time.  The UEA, AARP, League of Women Voters have all thrown support behind the citizen&#8217;s initiative.  I believe there will be many more organizations added to this list as time goes on.</p>
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		<title>By: Rep. Craig Frank</title>
		<link>http://underthedome.org/2009/09/30/mirror-mirror-on-the-wall/comment-page-1/#comment-79049</link>
		<dc:creator>Rep. Craig Frank</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 03 Oct 2009 18:45:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://underthedome.org/?p=891#comment-79049</guid>
		<description>John, still glad to see you have an opinion.  That&#039;s good.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>John, still glad to see you have an opinion.  That&#8217;s good.</p>
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		<title>By: John B Talcott</title>
		<link>http://underthedome.org/2009/09/30/mirror-mirror-on-the-wall/comment-page-1/#comment-79046</link>
		<dc:creator>John B Talcott</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 03 Oct 2009 17:17:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://underthedome.org/?p=891#comment-79046</guid>
		<description>Actuall Rep. Frank, you are leaving out some very obvious other choices.  Income taxes need not be raised on &quot;people who are barely making it now&quot;, but they could certainly be made more progressive for people making over $100,000 per year.  Currently Utah is one of only 9 states that has a flat tax.  Those at the lowest income levels pay the same percentage of their income as those at the highest.  35 states currently have a progressive income tax scale.  Of those states 3 have the same top rate as Utah&#039;s 5% and 3 have a top rate slightly lower than Utah&#039;s 5 percent.

This leaves 29 states that tax their wealthiest citizens at a higher rate than Utah.  Of the 44 states which have a state income tax this means that 2/3 of those states tax their wealthiest citizens at a rate higher than Utah.  The rates could kick in at 6% for AGI over $100,000 7% over $250,000 8% over $500,000 and 9% over $1,000,000.  Adding $40,000 per each million earned in the state would go a long way to replacing the revenue lost through tax cuts and the $27 million tax credit given to Goldman Sachs over the next 20 years.

Funding of state programs and services including education are already cut to the bone, in part due to the several tax cuts passed by the legislature during the past several yeas that showed a surplus.  Real people are hurt by the legislature cutting back state services.  

You Rep. Frank and the other well to do members of the Utah Legislature with your nice homes, you comfortable incomes, and your cadillac health insurance will not &quot;experience significant discomfort&quot; as you call it, but other citizens of the state who are less fortunate will certainly feel it in their lives on a daily basis.  It is not an &quot;intellectual or political policy&quot; issue with them.  It impacts their health and the quality of their life.  

Remember the saying &quot;the true measure of a society is how treats the weak and needy&quot;.  Rather than cut state programs, there are some other very logical and workable alternatives to increasing the funds available to meet the needs of our state until such time as the economy recovers.  I direct you to this piece by Alison Roland of the &quot;Voices for Utah Children&quot; for this enlightening information.

http://www.utahchildren.org/documents/IssueBriefonRevenuefor20119-21-09_000.pdf</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Actuall Rep. Frank, you are leaving out some very obvious other choices.  Income taxes need not be raised on &#8220;people who are barely making it now&#8221;, but they could certainly be made more progressive for people making over $100,000 per year.  Currently Utah is one of only 9 states that has a flat tax.  Those at the lowest income levels pay the same percentage of their income as those at the highest.  35 states currently have a progressive income tax scale.  Of those states 3 have the same top rate as Utah&#8217;s 5% and 3 have a top rate slightly lower than Utah&#8217;s 5 percent.</p>
<p>This leaves 29 states that tax their wealthiest citizens at a higher rate than Utah.  Of the 44 states which have a state income tax this means that 2/3 of those states tax their wealthiest citizens at a rate higher than Utah.  The rates could kick in at 6% for AGI over $100,000 7% over $250,000 8% over $500,000 and 9% over $1,000,000.  Adding $40,000 per each million earned in the state would go a long way to replacing the revenue lost through tax cuts and the $27 million tax credit given to Goldman Sachs over the next 20 years.</p>
<p>Funding of state programs and services including education are already cut to the bone, in part due to the several tax cuts passed by the legislature during the past several yeas that showed a surplus.  Real people are hurt by the legislature cutting back state services.  </p>
<p>You Rep. Frank and the other well to do members of the Utah Legislature with your nice homes, you comfortable incomes, and your cadillac health insurance will not &#8220;experience significant discomfort&#8221; as you call it, but other citizens of the state who are less fortunate will certainly feel it in their lives on a daily basis.  It is not an &#8220;intellectual or political policy&#8221; issue with them.  It impacts their health and the quality of their life.  </p>
<p>Remember the saying &#8220;the true measure of a society is how treats the weak and needy&#8221;.  Rather than cut state programs, there are some other very logical and workable alternatives to increasing the funds available to meet the needs of our state until such time as the economy recovers.  I direct you to this piece by Alison Roland of the &#8220;Voices for Utah Children&#8221; for this enlightening information.</p>
<p><a href="http://www.utahchildren.org/documents/IssueBriefonRevenuefor20119-21-09_000.pdf" rel="nofollow">http://www.utahchildren.org/documents/IssueBriefonRevenuefor20119-21-09_000.pdf</a></p>
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		<title>By: Tazpayer</title>
		<link>http://underthedome.org/2009/09/30/mirror-mirror-on-the-wall/comment-page-1/#comment-79045</link>
		<dc:creator>Tazpayer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 03 Oct 2009 14:54:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://underthedome.org/?p=891#comment-79045</guid>
		<description>&quot;but as a member of the UEA for over 32 years,&quot;    EXPLAINS IT ALL 
BAH, HA, HA, HA, HA.......Made my day!

Still no indignation about you&#039;re HYPOCRITICAL cronies? (I went to publik school)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;but as a member of the UEA for over 32 years,&#8221;    EXPLAINS IT ALL<br />
BAH, HA, HA, HA, HA&#8230;&#8230;.Made my day!</p>
<p>Still no indignation about you&#8217;re HYPOCRITICAL cronies? (I went to publik school)</p>
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		<title>By: Rep. Craig Frank</title>
		<link>http://underthedome.org/2009/09/30/mirror-mirror-on-the-wall/comment-page-1/#comment-79024</link>
		<dc:creator>Rep. Craig Frank</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 Oct 2009 23:44:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://underthedome.org/?p=891#comment-79024</guid>
		<description>Shortfalls in education funding are from lower tax revenue collections.  Education funding is directly tied to Personal and Corporate Income Taxes.  When taxpaying workers are unemployed the state takes a substantial hit in revenues.  So, the only way to hold education harmless in a year like this where education revenue shortfalls are multi-hundreds of millions of dollars short, we can: 1) raise personal income taxes on people who are barely making it now, 2) cut other state programs and magically redirect General Fund monies to education.  The Stimulus monies are one-time funds temporarily plugging holes in on-going programs.  The economy has to recover in the next 12-18 months or we will experience significant discomfort.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Shortfalls in education funding are from lower tax revenue collections.  Education funding is directly tied to Personal and Corporate Income Taxes.  When taxpaying workers are unemployed the state takes a substantial hit in revenues.  So, the only way to hold education harmless in a year like this where education revenue shortfalls are multi-hundreds of millions of dollars short, we can: 1) raise personal income taxes on people who are barely making it now, 2) cut other state programs and magically redirect General Fund monies to education.  The Stimulus monies are one-time funds temporarily plugging holes in on-going programs.  The economy has to recover in the next 12-18 months or we will experience significant discomfort.</p>
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